Episode #46: Celebrating Pride Month on the OneHaas Podcast, we’re honored to have Stacy Nathaniel Jackson join us on the show today. He is a fellow Haas alum from the class of 1990. Stacy talks about how being an over-achiever and solid performer helped him achieve a successful career in senior positions in corporate and nonprofit.
As an African American transgender artist-activist, he has served on various community boards including mayoral appointee of the San Francisco Transgender Civil Rights Implementation Task Force, UCSF Chancellor’s GLBT Advisory Committee, San Francisco LGBT Community Center Project, and former board president of Fresh Meat Productions, a leading transgender and queer performing arts nonprofit.
Stacy has since retired and is now focused on being an author, artist, and activist.
[00:00:11] Sean: Welcome to the OneHaas alumni podcast. In celebration of pride month, we have with us a very special guest today. Stacey Nathaniel Jackson. A fellow Haas alum from the class of 1990. After a successful career in senior positions in corporate and nonprofit, Stacy is, today, an author, artist, and activist. As an African American transgender artist-activist, he has served on various community boards, including mayoral appointee of the San Francisco Transgender Civil Rights Implementation Task Force, UCSF Chancellor’s GBLT Advisory Committee, San Francisco LGBT Community Center Project, and former board president of Fresh Meat Productions, a leading transgender and queer performing arts nonprofit. We also welcome on our show today my guest cohost Elida Bautista.
[00:01:02] Elida: Hi everybody. Thank you for having me, Sean. I’m Elida Bautista, the director of inclusion and diversity at the Haas School of Business. I’ve been here a couple of years now, focused primarily on the student experience across our degree programs and various units that interface from recruitment to alumni.
[00:01:20] Sean: And welcome, Stacy.
[00:01:21] Stacy: Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure being here as a 60-year-old, 1990 Haas alum. I’m pleased to share my experiences with you and Elida and I, we met at UCF, so I am a student of yours, of diversity and inclusion, the certificate program at UCSF.
[00:01:40] Elida: Yes, that’s our connection maybe three or four years ago now. I guess it would be four, easily four years ago.
[00:01:48] Stacy: I’ve been retired about a year and a half.
[00:01:51] Sean: Wow. So, Stacy really embodying Student Always.
[00:01:54] Elida: Yes. Yeah, it was a pretty intense certificate program that I designed specifically for staff at UCSF.
[00:02:06] And there was a small, small group of maybe 20 in our cohort and a lot of sharing of our lived experiences, a lot of soul searching, I think. It was a really great diverse group that I think held both identities that have been historically marginalized and privileged identities.
[00:02:26] And so there was a lot of opportunity to kind of dissect that in a variety of ways for all of us to learn from each other and engage in how it applied to our work. Lots of changes came from that whole crew of, you know, policies and things that they applied locally in their departments. So yeah.
[00:02:45] Sean: That’s cool.
[00:02:46] Elida: And Stacy, you were in development at the time, yes?
[00:02:49] Stacy: I was in university development. I was the director of finance and administration for the development office, and the development office at UCSF is centralized. So, I also had responsibility for the UCSF Foundation. Which I believe is a little bit different at Berkeley, that it’s decentralized, but UCSF has centralized.
[00:03:12] Sean: Stacy, can we take a walk down memory lane and give us your origin story for our listeners?
[00:03:20] Stacy: Sure. So, I was born in Los Angeles. My father was born in Los Angeles. He was a student at USC. He was in the Korean war. He basically faked out his age. He entered the Black National Guard. It was segregated at the time and he was 16 and he didn’t have to go to battle or anything.
[00:03:47] He was an engineer. My mother was from San Diego and they met during some kind of a sorority fraternity party in LA. And I will never forget this. They had had me and he was working probably two jobs at SC and he said he had a young girl, and that’s part of my origin story. I am transgender and came out after Haas. So physically transitioned in the late nineties. And I graduated from Haas in 1990.
[00:04:25] Sean: That’s beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about your career? You know, since, I guess, before Haas and after Haas.
[00:04:35] Stacy: So, I followed in my father’s footsteps and so I would never recommend this to anyone, but this is how confident I was. I applied to one university and the only university I applied to was USC. And I had no thought, of course, I would get in and I did. I mean talk about risky, but that tells you a little bit about sort of how I was brought up. And I started as a psych major and decided to change my major and ended up in the studio arts. So, from there, I started graduate school at the University of Arizona in sculpture and I needed to be practical, basically to say, okay, what is your path here? Yeah. And usually the path with, you know, masters, is you teach and then you start a studio practice and I just didn’t see it for myself. And so, I left graduate school, went back to LA, and then I worked at the LA Times in customer service. You know, I worked at UCLA extension, and then I came up to San Francisco with a friend. And I always wanted, ever since a little kid on vacations, we’d always come up to the Bay area and specifically San Francisco. At my age that’s, you know, I think there was a time when the flower children were in, you know, I mean, I was just always fascinated by all of that. And so, I said, I’m just going to move here. And I landed a job at HBO. At the time they were owned by Time, Inc. At the time, it was just Time Inc and it was the sales and marketing office, very small, in Two Embarcadero.
[00:06:34] And, basically, I was mentored. People sort of took me under their wing and said, you know, you’re very smart, you’re smarter than most of the people in this office. I mean, you make some money, go to business school. So, I said, okay. And I mean, you know, I really was an artist going to business school. I had to back up and take some calculus classes and extensions and all that kind of stuff.
[00:07:05] And my friends were laughing at me because I just kept going. And, you know, I got Advanced Accounting and I got an A in it, you know, that’s just who I am.
[00:07:20] Sean: And so, did you only apply to Haas? I’m really curious.
[00:07:28] Stacy: I did apply to very many places, but Haas was to me, it was about, again, my age, there is this nostalgia about being in the place where free speech happened in a place where there’s a very good reputation and I applied myself, meaning, you know, I wasn’t natural necessarily. I worked really, really hard.
[00:07:56] I even got a tutor one time, sort of for the quant stuff, but I, you know, the job at HBO was sales and marketing and I’m like, well, I kind of, from a practical standpoint, I’ve kind of already know that. Let me do something that I don’t know how to do, and I just dove right into it. So, my summer internship, I thought, well, let me marry the two.
[00:08:17] So I did an internship with Citibank, in marketing, but at the time, marketing for Citibank was designing checks. I’m like, no, no. Marketing for the bank.
[00:08:36] So, this is another funny story. My family grew up with Pepsi. I mean, it’s not really funny. They put Pepsi in baby bottles.
[00:08:45] Elida: Baby bottles. Yup.
[00:08:47] Stacy: I’m like, okay, Pepsi’s recruiting. And again, my sort of boldness, the CEO of PepsiCo was on the cover of Fortune. And I decided, let me write this guy. Cause at the time, my first year, I was with Black Student Union and other folks. And my first year, I had written something about what, we can call it diversity and inclusion at the time, but as a student, I got published in the Wall Street Journal for, I think I was commenting on George Bush.
[00:09:19] Stacy: I wrote this guy, you know, it’s probably from my dad. Like you just keep pushing forward. And believe it or not, even though I had gotten an interview set up, I literally got a letter from John Sculley who was the CEO at the time. And somebody had called me and said, we got this letter and we want to set up an interview for you.
[00:09:46] And it was amazing. I said, well, thank you. I actually already have an interview, but I learned that like writing campaigns, they work.
[00:09:56] Elida: That’s incredible.
[00:09:57] Sean: That is inspirational. Yeah.
[00:09:59] Stacy: So, I started as a senior business planner right out of business school in finance, in the San Francisco office of Pepsi Cola, which is a bottling operation.
[00:10:10] Elida: So, looking back, Stacy, in your introduction, you mentioned that you are a transgender. And, I was sharing with Sean that when you grow up with not a lot of representation of you in the media, there are these kinds of moments that might stand out, as you’re developing as a young person.
[00:10:32] And for me, one of those moments was like seeing a Red Hot Chili Peppers video for Fight Like a Brave where they have extensive footage of traditional Mexican dancers in LA and then like, Tupac had a reference in one of his songs that like, “it wouldn’t be LA without Mexicans.” Right. So, there were these moments of like, Oh, they know I exist.
[00:10:54] You know, I don’t see myself anywhere in popular media, but there are these connections of like a reality check of sorts. And I’m wondering, you know, as somebody who transitioned after Haas, if there were moments earlier in your life that you saw yourself reflected or connected to something that was like, that’s me, that’s who I am, but just not having the language or space representation and in ways of as a path forward maybe. If you could share some of what your experience is like, given that it was a different era and generation.
[00:11:29] Stacy: In terms of seeing myself, I think I will say this. I identify more with being African American and even being in the black student union as a person of color. I’m not going to find the right professional words, but Elida, you know what, it’s intersectionality, thank you.
[00:11:53] For myself, intersectionality. And so though, growing up, even in Haas, I mean, that’s really taught like the most important thing that we can do, meaning in my family, particularly my mother is vote, right. Civic engagement has always been really, really important to me. I mean, I think, even when I was 12, decided that I want, my mom dropped me off and I wanted to go to a Shirley Chisholm.
[00:12:32] She was running for president and that Shirley Chisholm rally, I mean, those are the kinds of things that’s who I still continue to look for. Wasn’t until later on, when I saw, really, a photographer who did basically a photo book of trans people that I looked at it and then to your point about images, but this is a little different, I’m like, Oh, that’s what I am.
[00:13:03] Right. And I think some folks in the trans community can relate to that. And others will tell you these other stories. I mean, I’ve always known since I was five, but it wasn’t, even in sort of my walk now in life, that’s not front and center necessarily. And so, I’m out and I’m not out if that makes any sense.
[00:13:27] And I think literally, you know, people tell you this as you age and get a different perspective. And so, I think early on, I would not necessarily come out after I physically transitioned. My thought was it’s private. This is not what I’m talking about my life.
[00:13:46] But I feel this is a moment. I think this is a moment that I can lend my voice and I have lent my voice.
[00:13:52] I mean, folks have reached out to me and years ago I did some media and now I’m beginning to do a little bit more, but a long-winded way to get to kind of your question, even now, it is the African, it is indigenous artists and writers who are out there pushing the boundaries of their art.
[00:14:23] And their politics is sort of where I’m landing right now after retired and don’t have to think about, you know, debits and credits.
[00:14:35] Sean: You know, speaking of artists, can you share with us a little bit about your writings and your work.
[00:14:48] Stacy: I’m not a slam poet, so I don’t have anything memorized.
[00:14:56] I finished a full-length manuscript on African American women in the military, and now I’m writing a SciFi full-length poem, but the military has been sort of a central theme in my family. I’m probably the fourth generation. I mean, great grandfathers were in the union army and they’re Buffalo soldiers and that kind of thing and even first cousins, second cousins, third cousins. And so, when I think, his name was Miley, I don’t know when the general said he shouldn’t have been there when he apologized for walking the walk with president Trump. Basically I had a poem that repeated somebody shouldn’t have been there, right.
[00:15:39] Somebody shouldn’t have been there. Somebody’s knees shouldn’t have been on somebody’s neck. They shouldn’t have been there. I mean that if you, you know, it was sort of repetitive that way. And so, I haven’t memorized it, but I think you’d get the gist of where I was going.
[00:15:55] Elida: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So maybe if we can have you speak a little bit about, well, I’ll say one of the, my areas of interest of inviting you in and asking you to share your voice is also some of the conversations you and I have had around, you know, workplace practices and things that you had to navigate before there were real policies in place to support that transition, including a name.
[00:16:25] And so, I’m wondering if there are, you know, anything that you’re reflecting on now in this moment, as you were saying that you’re lending your voice, vis-à-vis, what your experience was, you know, in the nineties and any insights that you have around that wisdom that comes with age and time as well, based on what you’re observing, you know, this kind of celebration that there is now kind of more increased awareness around, you know, the threats to transgender, you know, people of color in particular.
[00:16:57] Stacy: Well, you know, it’s a really interesting topic because folks who have chosen to physically transition, and I’ve done that.
[00:17:12] And with age, you begin to blend in, right. And almost that’s, as a kid and going through struggles, that’s what you’ve always wanted. Right? You don’t want to announce that this is what I’ve always wanted. This is who I am. Right. I am a black man.
[00:17:35] But I don’t think it’s any different then or now, that this is a very private decision with very public consequences. And regardless of folks who are allies and it’s much more prevalent now that celebrities have come out. That’s a celebrity, right? I don’t, I mean, I know that there have mostly male born male.
[00:18:16] So trans women now, or in transition, who I even worked for a trans woman who, you know, was the CEO and there is a different struggle, partially because of just the dynamics of hormones, is that it’s more difficult for them to pass, if at all. And the interesting thing, I was a mayoral appointee on the San Francisco Transgender Civil Rights Implementation Task Force way back when, and I will tell you white trans women, they have a hard time letting go of that privilege that they’re so used to, and that’s their awakening.
[00:19:10] Elida: Well, to be more specific. I remember us having conversations about even having your information from Haas transferred over to UCSF under your name and having to go through some loops and having your own folks that UCSF step in to support you in making that happen because it was before there were some clear policies in place. And so, as we’re thinking about what our, you know, kind of tweaks in the workplace that can be made to support folks or the, on the contrary, that accidentally out people who don’t want to be outed. Right. So, kind of taking those kinds of things into consideration.
[00:19:51] Stacy: I think that that is the most important thing. It’s almost like you need to ask somebody for a hug, right? I mean, if you’re a huggy person, you need to ask permission. I mean, just because someone is trans and you know that they are and they’re out, that still doesn’t, you still need to ask permission, right? It’s really, really important to ask permission. And not assume right, that because, you know, right, or you’ve been a part of their life before and now, it’s important to fight for that. The situation you’re referencing is, I, for the longest time, did not engage with USC or Haas for that matter, because they continue to send me alumni stuff in my old name and Stacy is not my old name. By any, it’s a nickname, but it’s not my birth name. And I went through all of the things that you’re, as opposed to, you know, I got my records changed. For whatever reason, and I don’t know why alumni databases don’t sync up with anything else.
[00:21:03] And that just pissed me off. And it’s actually triggering, you know, and it’s been a while for me, it was still triggering. Like, I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to send emails or write to alumni associations or what have you. Well, the person you’re talking about, he no longer works at UCSF, but he was very, he was a senior director of alumni relations.
[00:21:28] And he was very tied in with all of the alumni directors and all different roles. And he happened to be tied into USC and UC Berkeley. And I don’t know how we got into this, but I had a conversation with him and I said, you know, this is really upsetting. I’d love to engage, but they won’t change my name. He literally advocate, I will handle it. That next day, it was done. That was the intervention.
[00:22:06] Sean: I have to follow up that thought with something that you brought up. This idea of public and private, right? I mean, for transgender people, you know, it is very much a private matter, but then there is this conflict of interest where we need to push for public policies and push for change to accommodate, right.
[00:22:28] To be mindful of transgender people. How do you reconcile that? That private-public conflict or what are some ways, you know, people can or allies or just, as a society, we can help with that without outing people.
[00:22:51] Stacy: I would see it’s not dissimilar from being an ally of a person of color that it is the allies’ job, if you will, to educate themselves on what history, current affairs, and what the issues are. And it’s really, it’s not either the person of color and/or the trans person’s job to necessarily educate. So, I would say that’s number one.
[00:23:28] Elida: Thank you, Stacy, for kind of reinforcing that the onus really is on allies to learn for ourselves, right, in how we can do better in all of these spaces. I think it’s also worth noting, you know, you mentioned a very clear difference between the experience of a trans woman or a trans male, right, in terms of privilege or their ability to pass and I just want to also take into consideration that the umbrella, you know, also includes folks who might be gender fluid or nonconforming and so there’s, multiple layers and folks who are all included in the trans umbrella that would have potentially different needs that we need to be mindful of, right? Like use of pronouns as one example, you know, the single-use restrooms to be gender-neutral, all those sorts of things that are now state policy, right? But I think I wonder Sean if what you’re asking about is how do we make sure we’re making informed decisions for the trans community without outing somebody by including them at the table in making those informed decisions.
[00:24:36] Like I asked you for permission before I shared with the rest of the team, your identity, to make sure that this was a platform you wanted to share that identity within.
[00:24:49] Stacy: Yeah. And I think, again, I can go back to the asking permission. I mean, earlier on, I didn’t consider myself an activist, but if you look at back at the things that I was doing, I was speaking, I was on the board of the, you know, at the time, the San Francisco LGBT project.
[00:25:10] I’ve always been interested in civil engagement. And so, when I heard that there was a commission that was a task force, really, that was really going to advise the board of supervisors in San Francisco, at the time it was Mark Leno’s taskforce, I talked to this guy that I talked to my wife who was connected to someone.
[00:25:36] And so everybody was out at the time.
[00:25:39] I think it’s a constant for me anyway, and I can’t speak for anybody else. For me, it’s not, I don’t have an answer, the same answer every time. I think the situation is different and it really depends on the situation and who’s asking the question and how I feel about that person and my cessing out if you will, of the situation.`
[00:26:08] And I am just at a point right now where I’m okay talking about this in sort of another alumni setting. My coming out in my corporate environment. I mean, they did some things that were amazing. The company doesn’t exist anymore, but after Pepsi, I went to a company called Airtouch Communications and I was in corporate finance staff there.
[00:26:35] And what we ended up doing in consultation with someone else is, and some folks, when I say this story, they go, what? But I thought at the time, they basically decided that I could use the bathroom. And that was a One California, that building is still there, but, you know, they don’t occupy. And I thought it was perfectly fine and I ran into a couple of times the CEO and the CFO, and there was sort of this moment of, you know, like on both sides, but Oh, you’re in the male bathroom. Oh, Okay. And when I had my first surgery, they, you know, everybody in my team and even they made an announcement right to folks that I work with because I was in a relatively high-profile position.
[00:27:31] So it wasn’t anything that I could, you know, just sort of slink and nobody would see, you know, what was going on. I don’t know how that works today. I don’t know if, I mean, I’m glad you mentioned gender fluid folk. There are folks who think they don’t, they won’t, and they’re choosing not to physically transition.
[00:27:54] And so there is no, there is no one size fit all, there really is not. And I think that that’s in the workplace. I think that that’s the most important thing. People who are in, who can influence right, who are management position and who can influence policy that, literally, it’s very fluid and that they have to engage their employees with heart, right.
[00:28:19] And as a human being when I was first transitioning, this should not be the case. But because I was, okay, I’m an overachiever, because I’m a solid performer, that it made a difference. That should not be the case, right? I mean, you should be able to be a marginal performer and folks should be able to make an accommodation whatever that means in the moment. And, I guess humans are humans, right? I mean, it’s human nature and I can sort of visualize for myself, trying to make that distinction between performance and what’s the right thing to do with respect to someone’s humanity.
[00:29:06] So I don’t know what the answer is there, but I do know it’s real.
[00:29:12] Sean: You know, in all these years of working and advising, do you have any advice for Haas alumni who may be in positions of power at their companies who may be able to influence change, you know, how should they go about it?
[00:29:28] Elida: And maybe even including aspiring allies who don’t yet know how to be an ally but have that position of power or influence.
[00:29:38] Stacy: It’s a fair question. I’m just an individual who can just talk about my own personal experience. I haven’t, even though I was on the employment on the task force, basically I chose to be on the employment committee. And so, this is always something that I’ve thought about and engaged on.
[00:30:06] And I’m gonna come up short on that one. I don’t know if there is an answer other than please follow the law.
[00:30:24] Elida: New Supreme Court decision.
[00:30:29] Stacy: I’m going to take the other side for a moment. I mean, this is, I don’t want to assume that all of the audience is necessarily, you know, at the same place, right? That Elida, you might be, or that I am, or even Sean, you’re asking very, I can tell by the way that you’re asking the question, it’s you’re open really, just want to know. And I think that’s all I can say is that’s really the spirit at. So, I think each situation, I think each company is different. I don’t know if anybody is teaching this in business school, but I would hope that if they haven’t, I don’t know what academic would take it on, but I would hope that somebody is taking it on because it’s very complex.
[00:31:32] Elida: Yeah, thank you for being thoughtful about it. And I appreciate that there is no perfect answer. And at the same time, I imagine there are a number of resources and tool kits that kind of coming back to your original point, Stacy, of like that folks can Google and read and inform themselves with.
[00:31:53] And I think the value of a podcast like this one is, you know, you might remember Stacy in our class on unconscious bias that one of the kinds of primary intervention so, as you know, surround yourself with more examples and exemplars of ways of being X identity, right, and that intersectionality that you referenced earlier.
[00:32:16] And so I think that, even by humanizing, by sharing your story, right, this part of my motivation in participating and in suggesting you in the series is that it allows somebody to have at least a connection to a person that is trans, right. And if they don’t know of somebody in their personal circle, right, because I sometimes hear like, Oh, I don’t know anybody. I’m like, you just don’t know that you don’t know. Right. And sometimes that’s also the case. But being able to hear your story of like, having such a strong identity of civic duty of, you know, African American representation, having that being at the forefront, having all of your business acumen, right.
[00:33:05] And this is another part of who you are, right. And what you’ve had to navigate in your life. And I think, it just allows for somebody to have one more possibility of what that experience might look like, right, in the full range of what trans lives might be about, or, you know, in every kind of industry and racial makeup and gender identity.
[00:33:32] Stacy: I will say this as well. We didn’t talk about it. I mean, there may be listeners who have thought about transitioning or in the process of transitioning as well. I recall, you know, you think about your family and your loved ones, but I recall I had a very close relationship with my managing director at the time.
[00:33:50] And she shared with me, she said, you know, I just got to tell you this. I feel like I’m going through a little death, meaning, and people do feel that way when you are connected to this other person, in this image of this person, and you want to support them and that person isn’t going to show up tomorrow, right. It’s going to be some other, it’s going to look like something else and you may engage with that person differently. And so even in the workplace, your employer’s also transitioning as well. And so, having space for that, of thinking about that and giving people time, right? I can say this now, but you know, at 60, but giving people time to adjust has also happened to me.
[00:34:44] And I think, sometimes, you can get impatient, but everybody is transitioning around you.
[00:34:50] Elida: Yeah, I appreciate that. I know that one of the, I try to be really transparent about stumbles. I’ve had to normalize and you know, normalize that we all stumble and that you still can get up and keep trying and working at being a good ally. And I’ll say that I noticed for myself. I struggle with misgendering folks when I’ve known them before and after versus when I’ve just known them after a transition.
[00:35:22] And each time I catch myself and I always feel horrible for it. Right. And it’s like that immediate, like, oh, I did it. And here I am, right. And I’ve experienced friends and loved ones being very forgiving of me. But I imagine it’s still, it’s a microaggression that accumulates, right. That is still great with like, this person just called theer gender again.
[00:35:48] It’s like, Oh, I did that, you know? And so, yeah, I hear you. I think that it’s in the moment, I imagine it’s really challenging for folks to continue to have that patience and for it to not feel hurtful, you know. I would imagine you would feel hurtful if somebody is essentially saying I’m grieving a loss when you feel like, I’m aligned with who I’ve always been.
[00:36:16] Sean: I think that’s a really important perspective that you share, Stacy. And this is something we, I touched upon in a prior episode with another alumni, Ace Patterson. And to a similar point, he says, you know, you have to be willing to make mistakes, right, for change to happen.
[00:36:33] And, what I hope listeners don’t take away from our conversation is that they don’t need to try, right? They need to shy away from most mistakes versus embracing that and knowing that is the right direction forward.
[00:36:56] Elida: The way I think about it is like, as long as if you’re stumbling, you’re still stumbling forward, right. Don’t fall back. But that it’s also about the recovery, right? Being willing to hear feedback or that’s something didn’t land the way you thought it was intended, that there is an opportunity for recovery and trust if there is a relationship.
[00:37:20] Right. But if somebody shuts down in either direction, right. It makes it more challenging to continue to grow.
[00:37:28] Elida: I appreciate that. I think when you were saying Stacy is like, now you have an inability to look back in a way that may be as you were going through it was harder to hear or to take or to be in a relationship with somebody. And, but I do hope that we all continue to be students always and confidence without attitude, I think is a real key part of also what you’re sharing in terms of like the humility aspect of just embracing that we know some things, right, and we know we’re good at them. And, yeah, no need to try to shut anybody down in the process.
[00:38:07] Sean: This has been so informative. I want to thank you both for coming on the podcast
[00:38:12] Elida: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:38:14] Stacy: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:38:16] Elida: Really good to see you, Stacy. Take care. Thank you, Sean.
[00:38:21] Sean: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the OneHaas alumni podcast. You like to learn more about Stacy’s work, please check out his website at snjackson.com. That’s S as in Stacy, N as a Nathaniel jackson.com. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show today. Please subscribe to us on your favorite podcast player and give us your rating and review.
[00:38:44] Relatedly, if you would like to hear more about current student perspectives, please check out our sister podcast Here@Haas, or you can subscribe to our monthly podcast newsletter on onehaas.org. Until next time. Go bears.